|
Post by Michael West on Feb 7, 2006 8:09:47 GMT -5
I've considered the "it is all just a dream/vr/video game," Stace, but I just don't know. It seems too easy of an explaination. But you're right, I do think Lock is the key. Lock and perhaps Ecko. What are the chances he would crash on the same island as his brother's plane?
Something to consider...do you think Lock ever had a consultation with Jack? That maybe Jack doesn't remember him because there was no way to "fix" him and he should be in a chair right now?
|
|
|
Post by Timid Wily Lava Child on Feb 8, 2006 16:59:50 GMT -5
...plane crashes dont cure paralysis, and neither does anything you migt fond on an island, no matter how weird it is. ...honsetly, i dont know in what reality lock could have been cired of paralysis. Well, this one. We live in a reality where the Christ healed people of this very thing. Even if one denies Jesus' religious significance, historically, this still is the case. Some strident atheist historians, studying documents internal and external to Christianity, will affirm this much about him. Now granted, that was the Christ, but I think that the only reality in which the healing of paralysis could be deemed impossible would be a hard materialist view - one which affirms that nothing exists except matter, in its various organizations. LOST seems to have denied at least this much, if ambiguously. Also - I think that this is developing the way Star Wars did. To a degree it's being made up as it goes along, with only a mild plan behind it, but done so in such a way that later one could say that there was always a firm and tight plan. These guys are doing it much more carefully than Lucas did. He created a love triangle, and invented a siblinghood to cure it - leaving alone the incest questions he aroused with the overtly romantic nature of Luke & Leia's prior relationship. (It adds, by the way, to the amusement in viewing Donnie & Marie as Luke & Leia in their little... disco skit). Instead, these guys are leaving a lot of vague doors open in ways advantageous to all - to us because open doors are int'resting mysteries, and to them because they can deal with the comings and goings of actors and popularity. Mike's article is a case in point. Whatever plans they had for her - those may all be gone now. Fortunately these writers are confident to write themselves, or let situations put them, into a hole, confident in their abilities to cleverly write themselves out. Is Locke the key? Sure, maybe. For now. If he pulls a David Caruso - no, he won't be.
|
|
|
Post by obliv326 on Feb 8, 2006 23:17:59 GMT -5
well, dave...uh...i certaimnly didnt intend to slight Christ by suggesting that there is no cure for paralysis...that there was some way to work that into this topic, hoonestly, never even occurred to me...so, yes, let me amend my statement...other than direct miraculous involvement of the Messiah, or neurosurgery, paralysis is not a cureable, temporary disorder...and certainly, a plane crash does not constitute either one of those situations...
so, can we all agree that most likely, neither Jesus appeared after the crash and laid his hands on lock, curing him, nor do i believe that, while trapped in the wreckage, a team of neurosurgeons ra into the flaming wreckage and chose that moment to perform tedious, technical micrsurgery, thus curing lock before he came to, only to hop back ont a passing raft and sailing away, unseen...
was that point not clear? lock is the key, b/c he has uncergone an almost 180 change, from feeble to almost invincible...
so, yes...if we must make this clear, there is no reality in whoch PLANE CRASHES cure paralysis...so, the island must have some magical effect on lock
is that okay with everyone?
as to your other point, i must say i disagree....i am quite certain there is a clearly thought out answer for every question that was presented in the first season. i am certain that mr abrams knows exactly whAt the island is, why it is affecting lock in this way, what the computers are meant to do, what the experiments are meant to do, who the Others are, and more than likely why everyone is there, why the others want babies...basically, i am certain he had a whole story arc that he is unfolding at his opwn rate. i am certain that these questions were all plotted out, and i am pretty certain that this was even part of his pitch.
i have no doubt that there are probably some things that are being worked out as they go, but i dont think for a second that they would go intgo this story with a mystery and no solution. no network would let that happen, even if it came from jj abrams (or steven cannell, or jerry bruckheimer, etc). it just doesnt make any sense to do that.
there is always the case that the story has to changem if abn actor decides to leave, or something like that...
|
|
|
Post by Timid Wily Lava Child on Feb 9, 2006 2:55:33 GMT -5
well, dave...uh...i certaimnly didnt intend to slight Christ by suggesting that there is no cure for paralysis...that there was some way to work that into this topic, hoonestly, never even occurred to me. Well, I'm not working it in out of place (people often say that when it's Jesus brought up) - it's support for the point made. I brought it up to say that the realm of realities in which paralysis not being healed, let's say miraculously, is actually more limited than those in which it can be - so much so that the real reality (ours) has historical examples of it. Hard materialism is popular, but it's far from the only game in town, and my end point was that LOST has avoided it. I originally was going to be that general when it occurred to me that off all the possible realities available, we happen to exist in one where people have been healed. It was surprisingly apropos (surprising to me, I mean). Whether they were to go with a Christian worldview or not (and who would expect that they would?), they have definitely shut out materialism, which leaves Locke's experience, while singular, not so impossible as to make him necessarily the key. Kate saw a horse. Horses don't materialize in this world. Shannon *and* Sayeed saw Walt. People don't materialize in this world (save - again, Christ, who also did to many people at once, but this was post-resurrection, and I doubt that Walt is dead, or intends to provide proof that he, in fact, is the Messiah). There have been other miracles on the island. Plus, we don't know how he became paralyzed, do we? I'm really asking, but I don't think we've been given that, and if it turns out to be at all possibly psychosomatic, then the singularity of his experience becomes less so. ..so, yes, let me amend my statement...other than direct miraculous involvement of the Messiah, or neurosurgery, paralysis is not a cureable, temporary disorder...and certainly, a plane crash does not constitute either one of those situations.... Wittily put. lock is the key, b/c he has uncergone an almost 180 change, from feeble to almost invincible... so, yes...if we must make this clear, there is no reality in whoch PLANE CRASHES cure paralysis...so, the island must have some magical effect on lock is that okay with everyone? Wow, there's a real stridency there. I struggle to find a response which would not make it sound like the tone offends me or needs combat, and it doesn't at all, ...so I'll stick with the point itself! I suppose I can agree with the point as stated, but I don't think it's the proper way to put it. Again, it seems to assume a view of reality that the show has already closed off. I evoke now the Peter Weir film FEARLESS. That, or something like it, is what I've had in mind regarding Locke. Plane crashes also do not eliminate deadly allergies - nor do realizations return them. as to your other point, i must say i disagree....i am quite certain there is a clearly thought out answer for every question that was presented in the first season. i am certain that mr abrams knows exactly whAt the island is, why it is affecting lock in this way, what the computers are meant to do, what the experiments are meant to do, who the Others are, and more than likely why everyone is there, why the others want babies...basically, i am certain he had a whole story arc that he is unfolding at his opwn rate. i am certain that these questions were all plotted out, and i am pretty certain that this was even part of his pitch. Well - you said something yourself, that Abrahms doesn't want to veer in that direction. That sounds like there's some liquidity to the show's future. I've heard similar things directly myself, in interviews with him where he is confronted with the mass of web discussions about the show. He was told that the most popular answer was "Purgatory", and his response was that they had already scratched that one from the list, in part because it was the most popular guess. He may have more of a plan now than he did, but it certainly wasn't set when he started. If he had said " I have a 5 year plan", all the execs would have to do is remind themselves of Babylon 5. Also, his pilot was drastically re-tooled after screenings to audiences. Originally Kate was the reluctant leader of the island, and star of the show, because Jack was killed in episode 1. It didn't work. Now these are two important characters, big pieces of the puzzle, altered early on simply due to audience reactions. The character of Ann-Sophia was clearly an afterthought - a guest shot by Rodriguez turned, over the summer, into a main character because they could get her. Abrahms knows TV. He knows that your production is going to hit issues and opportunities that you can't foresee or control. He can probably plan ahead so far in detail, a bit further in less detail, and at a certain distance may take a wait-and-see attitude. He must know that he's created a series that could launch film careers. He might also remember how fast (less than a season) Picket Fences went from a critically acclaimed, solid top ten tv show to unwatchable, and swiftly canceled. Things clearly weren't set when he started. If these guys are wise, they're not firming the next four years in stone now either. I don't want the show to meander directionlessly, but I don't think that avoiding that requires a full map at this point. Doubtless he has some plans. My example, Lucas, did as well, have some plans, but they weren't comprehensive, and didn't include important things like who's related to whom, or how many movies do i want to make. He changed it as he went, though he had not set himself up well to do that as these guys have, if, in fact, they have at all, as I have suggested. i have no doubt that there are probably some things that are being worked out as they go, but i dont think for a second that they would go intgo this story with a mystery and no solution. no network would let that happen, even if it came from jj abrams (or steven cannell, or jerry bruckheimer, etc). it just doesnt make any sense to do that. Then you're right, we do disagree. Mind you, as far as I know, we're both just making suppositions (I am - you may solidly know more than I do, and be speaking out of your head, where I am clearly speaking from another body area). It doesn't make sense in certain cases, but in this case, all they have to say, and they would be correct given the scenario, is "We haven't selected an outcome, because there are so many open to this situation, and we'd like to ultimately surprise the socks off people. It's an internet age, and we'll always know which way their heads are pointing. That will actually keep us alive and fresh." That would appeal to any exec who believes that "TV is changing" - hearing guys who know that, and want to make it a benefit, rather than a hazard. I do think what you're saying well describes INVASION (and Surface). That's a show with a clear direction, evident in the slow unveiling, but ... it's done in a confident way. There is a sense of meting out the facts, but no hesitancy about doing it when it's time. there is always the case that the story has to change if an actor decides to leave, or something like that... I also sense that the LOST people are managing the show like a show, a network product. I don't mean that in a blow off way, but in a Handling Realities way - i think they're doing it beautifully, if I'm correct. For instance, 1st season had most of the actors in most of the shows. Lots of residuals. This season has, in every episode so far, I think, less than half of the major cast in each program. This cuts back on residuals (paid only if an actor has a line in a given episode), which I realize come in later. Nevertheless, it looks like it could be budgetary, though it also seems to be being managed to the program's good. If it's done there, it can be done anywhere in the show's forming. For myself, I find the idea that they have a watery future more compelling, because they've earned my trust as writers - I know that they won't squander or falter. It'll be thrilling, and not seem like we're spiraling into all of the answers, becoming more predictable as it goes along.
|
|
|
Post by Michael West on Feb 9, 2006 9:22:56 GMT -5
So what did we think of last night's episode? Of this new unholy alliance between Sawyer and Charlie? I must say, this was my face: Sawyer really does want to be hated. I think he may have even done this in some way to push Kate away, planned or subconsciously. Loved Sawyer's line about being hit by Locke was like getting Ghandi pissed. I think it really underscored what we were talking about before. On the brite side, Charlie once more turned down the heroine. He really doesn't want it or need it now.
|
|
|
Post by Timid Wily Lava Child on Feb 9, 2006 22:21:25 GMT -5
You're right about that bright side. I wish I'd seen it, rather than just hearing it - to see any nuances in his performance. When the reveal came, I rolled my eyes. "Oh. Charlie's being stupid again. Almost unbelievably stupid." Maybe there was something I couldn't see that would have made that work better.
I liked Sawyer's ... 'gambit'.
|
|
|
Post by Michael West on Feb 10, 2006 11:29:04 GMT -5
You're right about that bright side. I wish I'd seen it, rather than just hearing it - to see any nuances in his performance. When the reveal came, I rolled my eyes. "Oh. Charlie's being stupid again. Almost unbelievably stupid." Maybe there was something I couldn't see that would have made that work better. I liked Sawyer's ... 'gambit'. Yes, you really need to see it! I have it TiVoed, if you're interested in seeing it this weekend. The boys haven't watched it yet either.
|
|
|
Post by Timid Wily Lava Child on Feb 10, 2006 18:17:58 GMT -5
...i will have to be charitable andf assume that you did not intend it to offend me in the way that i felt it was meant initially That would be correct.
|
|
|
Post by obliv326 on Feb 12, 2006 6:39:17 GMT -5
...i will have to be charitable andf assume that you did not intend it to offend me in the way that i felt it was meant initially That would be correct. good. sorry if i seem a little touchy on the issue, but it is a very personal one wigh me, and with most people i think. as you know, my past dealings with religion have been mostly, if not entireloy, disastrous. so, religion is ahot button ssue w/me. i think it is for most people. i mean, there is a reason they say its not polite to discuss it, orpolitics, in public. its somethin we all pretty much have to come to terms with and make our own. we are, after all, discussing what is t become of that deeper, eternal part f us fior eternity. its not something i take lightly, and i really take offense whan approached in such a way that seems to suggest that i am not giving it the percentage of thought that it deserves. i certainly take you at your word that you werent doing that, but it is a difficult thing to judge, and if you arent on the same wavelength at the time, it is easy to take offense. when it is brought into the open, it is almost like you are being forced to dedfend your entire belief system, since the person who tosses it out there c asually generally is of the belief that it is not only appropriate, but that they are helping you by suggesting that you dont have enough faith, and you should look to them as an example...which is why, if what you say is correct, that people dont really like Jesus being brought up in conversation. if i go on the defensive when you bring up the topic, it is because, despite a lot of overlap in our beliefs, we both differ substantially in terms of popular culture And where religion overlaps that particular area. if i brikkstle or seem to overrreact when that tgopic arises, i apologize. its just that for a long time, i felt that i had to constantly defend myself and my religious beliefs from folks who approached it in a very aggressive and self righteous way. its not that i am uncomfortable with the topic, or that i feel uncomfortable with my decisions on such matters. but rather that for a long time, my beliefs were belittled and subject to harrassment, and being put in that position is not only unfair, but really offensive. not to mention uncomfortable. so, if i have offended,i apologize. however, i think it is not an indefensible position to say that such a private, personal topic is probably nopt the best subject for debate in an open forum like this one. i am quite certain i wasnt the only person wh thought it was an odd choice to bring up in a discussion of LOST. and reading over it, i still think its pretty far off the point of the discussion. however, knowing that you are no longer someone who enjoys stirring this particular pot, i will apologize again if my reaction was hurtful or offensive...
|
|
|
Post by Michael West on Feb 16, 2006 16:07:45 GMT -5
I thought it was a solid episode. Some key thoughts/observations:
The army officer in the back of the truck was Kate's father. Nice touch! It is interesting to see all of these connections build and play out. But will we ever know what it all means?!?!
The balloon guy is totally one of the others. I know this not only because of the final look he gave as the door to the armory was closing, but because of everything he said. His name and how he got to the island, for example: Henry Gale--Dorothy's uncle from The Wizard of Oz. And a balloon? We all know that "Oz the Great and Terrible" arrived over the rainbow courtesy of a hot air balloon! He also said his wife had a fever. Dorothy had a fever and "imagined" OZ. He's one of THEM! *Pointing finger and letting out one of those Pod People screams*
Did Locke get there in time or not? This has been a subject of debate with everyone I've talked to. I don't think he did. Others think he stopped it just in time. At any rate, it did reset to 108. HOWEVER, we did get the flashes of the hieroglyphics. I've gone to several sites and the translations are things like "It dies," "Cause death," and "Cause to die." Nothing that sounds very good.
What was the point of Sawyer's quest for the tree frog? Was it just to show that he's a mean guy that smashes a frog? We know he's not a nice man, okay. We get that! Just seemed like a wasted plot thread to me.
The previews were interesting. What the hell did they do to Claire in that lab? Can't wait to find out.
|
|
|
Post by obliv326 on Feb 17, 2006 0:17:04 GMT -5
someone may have asked this already, but at the end of sayid's flashback. hes in the back of the truck, and the soldier he was speaking to held up a picture, and i swear it was kate. did anyone else catch this, or am i rehashing?
|
|
|
Post by Michael West on Feb 17, 2006 6:30:34 GMT -5
Stace,
It was kate. The soldier is the man she always thought of as her father. ;D
|
|
|
Post by obliv326 on Feb 17, 2006 15:05:51 GMT -5
wow
i guess i didnt place his face!
my revelation seems a lot less fascinating now!
oh well...im good at other stuff
|
|
|
Post by Michael West on Feb 17, 2006 16:26:37 GMT -5
oh well...im good at other stuff That you are!
|
|
|
Post by bitten on Feb 21, 2006 4:33:27 GMT -5
yeah-- and Freddy Krueger? needed a manicure REALLY bad (sorry, I really did laugh out loud at the above) just reading your guy's posts on Lost-- REALLY enjoyable, and enlightening (Timid Wily Lava Child) we could talk about the price on those Lost episodes season 1, (cause I am sort of broke) and could trade or be happy to pay postage and cost-- also-- something I wanted to mention regarding the subject of miracles in the beginning, when people would ask, (season 1) the producers would say "No , no, nothing like BTVS" nothing supernatural at all." and when I read "what is going on on Lost theories?" (all good theories) I remember that, and wonder if it is now true, or if they have changed their initial decision or show premise/plan. A plane crash itself, couldn't heal the paralysis-- but when this first happened-- it was one of the least confusing and troubling occurrences to me at the time-- It's true-- barring an unknown miracle-- paralysis can't be healed by a plane crash-- However, there are about 10 people at any given time (I know two of the reported cases that were struck by lightning and suffered the effects of that trauma, but afterwards, could walk, unexplainedly, and reportedly later, had returned to normals lives). I noticed more than the average person, growing up, as I had a grandmother suffering paralysis from a stroke-- so I found later "miraculous" recoveries, absolutely amazing. All the events, have been something similar to a plane crash or car crash (or a near miss) and are something VERY emotionally scary-- almost more than could be lived through, and are explained medically in this way-- in cases of residual paralysis-- where someone is paralyzed by unresolved swelling at the base of the spine and spinal cord, that somehow interferes with nerve impulses, paralysis can result. These are usually the cases where the surgeon and doctors, don't understand WHY the patient is still paralyzed, as they thought the spinal cord and spine itself still intact, operated, thought it successful, and it hadn't been, or the case occurred and persisted after an injury. The patients are paralyzed, and the doctors are not really understanding why. Or they misdiagnosed it to be something else. Then, some incredible event (like the plane crash, has happened) When the trauma, or event, as a car crash, or near crash or death miss occurrs-- a massive chemical dump from the brain and glands occur-- all of steroidal type chemicals, anti-inflammatory, and the patient can usually stand, if not walk (as sometimes physical therapy is needed due to muscle atrophy, or nerve injury in limbs). It's described as "an incredible amount of chemicals", sort of a big "whoosh" in the body, like a "healing chemicals dump", from the brain and endocrine system. Oddly enough? afterward, people can walk. Before we came through one, and into this season? I thought perhaps that was what had happened to Locke. It is a miracle itself, when that happens, and you'd be shocked to live through something like that. (and locke kept himself physically as fit as he could, so I wasn't as surprised either, at the being able to walk because he was in shape physically. Now, I don't know-- I do know that I love the show, and that I'd hate it, if they didn't explain the mysteries, in the show to some degree of satisfaction. (and Lost-a- saurus, (not the black smoke monster) or the one that grabbed Locke, but the invisible tree moving thing? I REALLY miss him this season also? while I think they are having great story lines, I personally, really like a show to stick with a certain amount of people as a core group-- you get attached to them (hopefully, you love them) and then you care what happens to the characters, and thus, you watch the show. one thing I fear? is that with so many doors of possibilities? (cause just now? if they tied up loose ends? it'd take several episodes each character, and as TV shows often have guest writers that don't know the shows history? they could end up with tons of "oops" and mistakes and untended story lines-- ex.-- I really loved BTVS-- and when I was watching ATS, and saw angel say to Conner, right before kicking him out? "my girlfriend once sent me to hell for 100 years" (not if said girlfriend was Buffy-- it was 500) in my defense, I can only say, that I haven't been that ardent a fan of anything since childhood. This was a small example, but I have seen them sometimes add a change to a MAJOR storyline, and not always for the better. interesting note Mike-- according to one clue from last week-- the script that Hurley was reading on the Island? Two words, and if it is done in an anagram, the letters-- they spell, Purgatory (they are so messing with us) bye gentleman *waves* edited to ADD:: big PS-- if any of you have thoughts regarding the above? I'd enjoy discussing them or reading your thoughts--my post came up after, on a page 4 --Thanks
|
|